A witness in the investigation of Karl Sardzhant may have lied to the coroner, the hearing was told.
Mr. Sarjant, 49, was found hanged by his wife, Bernadette, on November 7 at his house on Connach, Flintshire.
Flintshire’s deputy head of the council, Bernie Attridge, said he believes that “the dismissal killed my friend.”
But Kathy McGay, lawyer for Karvin Jones, said that Mr. Attridge apparently had some "knowledge of behavior that would have caused Mr. Sargent's concern."
Mr. Sarjant was found dead four days after he was fired by the minister of the communities by the first minister.
Coroner John Gittins agreed to hear statements from a lawyer about the possible presentation of new evidence that was revealed among the witnesses, including board leader Flintshire Aaron Shotton.
Ms. McGay said: “Mr. Shotton made a witness statement that contradicts some of the evidence of Mr. Attridge.
“On November 1, 2017, there is a text message from Mr. Attridge to Mr. Shotton … and it seems that this concerns Mr. Sargent.
"Mr. Attridge is betting on the fact that he is beating bricks … He refers to the fact that the deputies in Westminster have been exposed, and it will not be long until AM … hits the hit list."
Ms. McGay said that Mr. Attridge said on November 5 that rumors about Mr. Sarzhaner were circulating at the Labor Club, and he wanted to dissuade people in the labor group to say something to support him.
He then suggested that, according to her, Mr. Sarjant had done something “that could lead to imprisonment”.
“Mr. Attridge and Mr. Attridge themselves know exactly what he meant,” she told the coroner before adding: “It seems that Mr. Attridge did not tell you the truth.
“Signing a statement of truth when you know what you are saying is wrong is a contempt of court.”
Mr. Gittins heard statements from a lawyer regarding the presentation of this new evidence, but he refused, saying that he already had enough to do his job.
Earlier in the investigation it was heard that the first minister warned Mr. Sargent “to be careful” over behavior and drinking after an anonymous letter saying that he “is not suitable for women”.
AM's work was blamed for being inappropriate with respect to women, which he denied.
The investigation heard that "palpable" complaints were made a few weeks before his death.
- I failed, ”said Carl Sergeant
- Tangible Complaint against Sargeant
He left a letter apologizing to his family and said to them: "I did not let you down."
The letter continued: "You do not deserve any of these publicity, because of my actions."
Speaking at the inquest in Rutin, Denbyshire, on Wednesday, Mr. Jones said he received an anonymous letter in 2014 from someone in Alin and Dezid counties in Mr. Sarjante.
“I remember the words“ he is not suitable for women, ”but the letter was anonymous, I showed it to Carl, he told the investigation.
Mr. Jones said that he said to Mr. Sargent in 2014: "You should know … be careful, obviously, someone is looking at you."
The First Minister also told him: “Be careful how you behave and how much you drink.”
Mr. Jones said that Mr. Sarjant "was not an alcoholic," but the company he was holding was "pretty good food."
He told the coroner John Gittinus that the couple had known each other since 2001 and “never had a cross word,” and this remained until the end of his life.
Mr. Jones did not know that Mr. Sarjant was suffering from depression or was taking anti-depressants, the investigation heard.
When asked when he first heard about rumors about Mr. Sarjan’s behavior, he said: “Rumors are abundant in politics. Evidence is rare. ”
He did not know what the rumors were, but he found out about them on October 18, 2017, on the day when he held a meeting with senior advisers to discuss personnel changes.
He wanted to see "evidence not rumors." When asked what had changed, he said: “The catalyst was the fact that we had names. As soon as the names were known, there was, in my opinion, an obligation to look further. ”
- Carl Sargeant: AM career profile
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He insisted that in writing there must be something in writing that later appeared to one of the two applicants, who in October announced Mr. Sargat to the Labor Party, dated an event in the summer of 2017.
“At this point, it was important to protect the anonymity of these applicants,” said Jones.
Pushed by the coroner, why he didn’t talk to Mr. Sarjant, he said: “If I had given him more detailed information in terms of the charges … he would have immediately understood who these people were, and I couldn’t risk it.”
After discussing the twist that the Sargant sent after lunch after he was fired, the coroner asked Mr. Sargent to tell the truth when he said that he was being removed because of his personal behavior.
Mr. Jones said: "It was not necessary to volunteer information … there was a softer way to do it."
The first minister spoke of "the feeling of fear that occurs that morning … I lost sleep over him," but this "had to be done."
He said that he did not give Mr. Sarzhan details of the complaint, because he “could not”, but said that the police did not participate.
Mr. Sarjant’s response was “curious,” since he said that he “did not recognize” the allegations. “This is not a denial in politics,” Mr. Jones said.
Tweet after firing
He did not cry and was "a bit in a panic, but not upset." Answering the question whether his reaction caused alarming calls, Mr. Jones said: "There was no reason to doubt that he understood the consequences."
He advised him to talk to the union for advice and “lower your head”. However, despite the fact that Mr. Sardzhant tweeted, the Wales government had to "shoot".
“The press will speculate. Twitter is aggressive, ”he said.
Concerned about why he felt the need to respond to Mr. Sarjan’s tweets, he said: “Because of this tweet, there was rabies in the media that made all kinds of statements about Karl that were not true.”
The investigation heard the sound of Mr. Jones, who spoke on BBC Wales on November 6, the day before Mr. Sargent died.
In it, Mr. Jones used the words "incidents". The coroner asked him if he saw the difference between this and the word "accusations."
He replied no, saying: “From this news item it is perfectly clear that the news report is about allegations.”
Mr. Jones said that staff reshuffles occurred on Friday when Mr. Sarjant was away, and if he had been held in the middle of the week, he would not have the support of his family.
Leslie Thomas KK, representing the Sarjant family, asked Mr. Jones that in 2014, Mr. Sarjant spoke about the life event he had experienced, and whether he could leave vulnerable people, which, according to Mr. Jones, he could.
The barrister questioned why it is necessary to draw Mr. Sarjan’s attention to the anonymous letter sent in 2014. Mr. Jones found it right to inform him, since the letter was also sent to Mrs. Sarzhant.
He did not speak to Mr. Sarjant about the complaint since 2016, because “the applicant did not want me to”.
The investigation heard that Ann Jones AM was organized to act as a link between the Labor group and Mr. Sardzhant, and secondly, in the pastoral role.
Mr. Jones told Mr. Thomas that this happened in the afternoon after Mr. Sarjan’s dismissal, adding that these were not just “political issues”, but Mr. Jones wanted Mr. Sarjant to be able to rise.
Ms. Jones "wanted to make sure Carl was fine from a personal level too," he said.
Mr. Jones told the investigation earlier that he planned to carry out a reshuffle in November 2017, because he was discussing with AM, who left his party, and also wanted to offer new opportunities to others.
But in the course of the discussions, he received written "complaints" about Mr. Sarzhan. Prior to this, Mr. Jones described the rumors that Mr. Sarjant is a “titan”, according to the testimony of one of his special advisers.
Mr. Jones said after written statements that occurred a few days before the reshuffle on November 3: "They cannot be ignored as part of the reshuffling process."
That day, Mr. Sarjant, who was considered to be the leader of the house, was dismissed.
Mr. Jones confirmed that the first minister was “completely” his responsibility, which was assigned or moved, and he “completely encroached” on the cabinet.
Earlier, Mr. Jones’s senior adviser, Matthew Greenaw, was recalled to clarify some of the evidence he gave on Tuesday, which detailed the time frame for establishing allegations against Mr. Sargent.
“Tangible” complaints related to alleged incidents made by women, known in court as Miss A and Miss B, and occurred in the summer of 2017.
They were presented through the Labor Party to Mr. Jones in October 2017. One of the two women involved later made a written statement.
"Rumors" about Mr. Sarzhan
Earlier in 2016 there were two separate charges, although one of them was in the form of an anonymous letter.
During the interrogation, Mr. Greeno agreed with one statement by a woman, known as Miss S, who could have been made in 2015, but now he knew about it until 2016.
He told the court that when the reshuffle occurred, when Mr. Sargant lost his job, he was present in the room when Mr. Jones spoke to every other minister except one.
Responding to a question from Mr. Gittins about whether any information was referred to for any of the women, Mr. Greenhe said: “Not in my presence”.
He told the Sarjant family’s lawyer, Leslie Thomas, that he didn’t believe that Mr. Jones could talk to anyone if he didn’t know.
Special Counselor Jane Runeckles said that the reshuffle talks began in the summer of 2017 between her: “Matt and the first minister.”
Speaking about the meeting on October 18, 2017, she confirmed that there were rumors about Mr. Sarjante, but during the interrogation he heard that he was still under consideration by the leader of the house.
The coroner said that he struggled to understand how this could still be the case, to which she replied: "The first minister was absolutely clear at that moment that he was quiet and he had nothing to offer otherwise."
The reshuffle was motivated by the commitment Mr. Jones made to bring one particular AM to the government, and since he felt that some people were not provided with opportunities within previous governments, she told about the investigation.
But the dismissal of Mr Sarjant was caused by Mr Greenham, who received a written statement from one applicant on 1 November.
Gitting said: “It was a decisive factor in terms of his removal from office. Would you agree? ”
Ms. Runeklas replied “yes”, adding that it would be difficult to postpone the reshuffle.
The coroner continued: “What we have is a scenario …” I know that Karl is going and he needs to go, let's continue ”… not a picture“ now there is a process to follow in relation to these accusations under investigation … no one takes a deep breath here. "
Brother Sergeant Andy’s brother asked if Ms. Runekl had done anything to support him, and she said no, explaining, “The electorate’s whim is something [politicians] to obey … you enter into it, knowing that this can happen to you. "
"Setting the scene"
Mr. Thomas repeatedly interrogated Ms. Runecks for his meeting on October 18 and any discussion of rumors around Mr. Sarjant, especially in the light of the #MeToo movement and the “political fallout” in Westminster as a result.
She told the court that she did not ask where the rumors came from, and said that they were “irrelevant to the case,” as Mr. Thomas challenged. She agreed that she could talk to Mr. Sarzhant about this, but did not.
Leslie Thomas KK asked if the reshuffles were “just a convenient way to disguise” the situation around Mr. Sarjan.
"Absolutely not," she replied.
Mr. Thomas asked Mr. Jones why, after the statements of Miss A and Miss B in 2017, Miss S, who made her initial statement in 2016, contacted me to find out if she wanted to complain now.
He accused Mr. Jones of “setting the stage” to “get rid of” Mr. Sargent.
“I could have removed Karl from the office for no reason,” the first minister replied.
He said that he believes that someone who spoke in 2016 should have asked if they want to file a complaint.
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